Mimosa MU-MIMO ?

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sirhc
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Re: Mimosa MU-MIMO ?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:57 am

rebelwireless wrote:This is a fairly common complaint, and tons of people have asked for even an M5 radio with more CPU to handle more clients.


I keep telling people that that the CPU in the Rocket has NOTHING to do with anything really other than running the UI if the radio is in bridge mode.

Now if you have the Rocket M5 in NAT or Router mode then the CPU actually has a bearing on performance as it touches all the packets but if the Radio is in Bridge mode the packets simply bridge from one interface to the other and never see the CPU. The CPU will query the Radio Chip for stats such as clients, and signal levels and such but the CPU is simply working as a control interface to the radio.

When you have a Rocket setup in BRIDGE mode which most people should the CPU has nothing to do with the packets getting BRIDGED from the wireless interface to the Ethernet interface.

Just like with our WISP Switch, the CPU utilization under the the Device/Status page has NOTHING to do with the switch capacity as the CPU is simply there to run the UI/CLI and also run Daemons for SMTP, SNMP, RSTP, LACP, and stats collection but has NOTHING to do with switching capacity.

In fact with the Rocket the CPU is an AR7241 which is connected to another Atheros chip (depending on if it is an M2, M3, or M5) which is the radio.

When in bridge mode CPU and Memory is not really doing much but when it is in NAT or Router mode then the Memory and CPU become important.

There is some CPU usage if using airMAX for the TDMA but that takes little CPU overhead. The problem they really had was the CPU was not fast enough to do what they wanted with TDMA but the CPU was never overloaded. In fact if you set up SNMP to monitor CPU usage on an AP that is in bridge mode the CPU usage is VERY LOW.

However the use of TDMA was primarily use to over come the "Hidden Node" problem but years ago over on UBNT forums I showed people how to get better peak performance without using airMAX.

This is how you do it:
Make sure you enable RTS Threshold on "ALL" client radios and set the value to 1. Do not do this on the AP because the AP can obviously see all the Clients.

WARNING: If you miss just one client radio setting RTS to Enable and to 1 you blow the whole concept.

Now you will actually see slightly better peak through put with airMAX turned OFF but under heavier loads your jitter will be slightly higher.
Also airMAX "sometimes" helps but "sometimes" does worse when you have 1 bad client eating up too much air time, but results very.

How it works:
With RTS Enabled and set to 1 you are telling all clients to ask permission to transmit even 1 bite to the AP.
If the AP is busy it will not respond or say NO to the client so he waits preventing clients from talking on top of each other which was the Hidden Node problem as not all clients can see each others transmissions breaking CSMA and thus talked on top of each other trashing communications for both parties.

I have run my towers both ways and the performance is similar. Since they got most of the bugs worked out I enable airMAX if for no other reason the little graphical bars look cool.

This was another reason why I did not understand the point of Titanium, bigger CPU and more memory = no performance increase if in BRIDGE mode.

And why the hell did you need 1G interface especially on M2 when QAM64 was the limiting factor?

You got better performance with Legacy M2, sectors and RF Armor shield kits and saved $250+ per AP.

With the Titanium M5 you spent $200+ more then you had to add our shield kits anyway and then they suffered like 90% failure rates and NO performance increase.
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Re: Mimosa MU-MIMO ?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:15 am

Now at my WISP we stayed with what worked and worked well.

Legacy M5 gear with shields all around.

AF24 is our primary back hauls
We have some AFX, SAF, and MIMOSA back hauls as well.

We offer 30+ Mbps to our residential clients and most have ditched cable and use streaming.

We offer up to 100-HD Mbps private DFS links with NanoBridge/Beam links for larger commercial customers.

We saved a ton of money and are debt free and our system is still only at 50% capacity.

We are getting closer to 1,000 subs and bring in $600K+ a year with $50-$100K cash reserve.

My WISP runs itself for the most part by my 3 employees and I still draw $100K salary with benefits.

I Pay half of my guys $50K plus benefits which we pay like $75% of their family medical and dental.

If I decided to go back to my WISP tomorrow I could make it grow 2X in 2 years but RF Armor and Netonix take most of my time.

All I am saying is when you find something that works milk it until it no longer serves your purpose then upgrade slowly until you know the new gear works as intended. This saved my ass on the Titanium line.

I am slowly starting to use AC gear, mostly right now to replace private VIP NanoBridge PTP links and they seem to work well.

Will continue to play with AC PTMP on a small scale for awhile longer and then only replace sectors that fit the bill such as low noise floor, short client links, and fairly clean spectrum. I can see the AC gear replacing my DFS sectors first.
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Re: Mimosa MU-MIMO ?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:54 pm

All of our rockets are bridged. We don't do anything to put CPU load on the rockets. Only monitor pings, any link monitoring is don't via the connected routers etc.

How many CPE do you get on a Rocket? Never seen a rocket perform well with more than 30 subs in bridge mode...

What is your population density? We are primarily rural with long shots to customers because of low population density. DFS is about 90% useless because of distances. We are just breaking into a more urban market.

When we hit 30 subs on a RocketM5, performance tanks. I'm not looking at CPU usage, I'm saying that throughput to customers tanks even when throughput to the radio is low. Move a few clients to another sector, throughput comes back. Maybe a better way of saying this is that if there are 20 subs, the Rocket can handle ~60Mbps or so, if there are 35 subs, 20Mbps is difficult to hit. Again, lots of comments around about a RocketM5 having peak clients of about 30.

This is a common enough problem for rural wISPs. Don't have enough channels to narrow down the sector beams. A RocketM5-PRISM would be great, 10Mhz channels, gets me to <20 subs per rocket, can run the channels tight together. 3x 120 sectors and 100 subs at 5Mbps is a rough limit to be stuck on. There is plenty of throughput left to add subs, but the RocketM5 will crumble under 35 subs. Not enough spectrum to go with 4x 90s, or 6x 60s. Though I don't agree, this is where many people have been preaching GPS sync to do channel re-use. I think shields will help with that.

We might have 30 subs in a 120 degree arc from 1-8 miles out. We are experimenting with the Simper radios to try to do focused DFS channels to clusters of homes to pull them off the sectors.

We know there are solutions. Licensed radios are expensive, which would free up those backhaul channels. Working on moving from a 120 to a pair of 90's w/ armor as a short-mid term solution. I'd love to just run 15 subs per rocket, but that's not very practical at the moment. A RocketAC-PRISM on the other hand is a drop-in replacement and cures that headache for at least a year, maybe 2.

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Re: Mimosa MU-MIMO ?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:38 pm

I use 30 subs as a MAX myself. When we hit 30+ subs we simply add another sector and split the load.

With the RF Armor shield kits and the fact that we use 24GHz as our main back hauls or UNII-I or licensed we have all of UNII-II and UNII-III available for sectors and we can put (5) 5.7-5.8 sectors on a tower and even more for DFS sectors as there is so much there.

DFS is good for subs <4 miles from tower or upto 5+ miles for high end PTP private links.

One thing you can try is what I said above and see what happens.

If you have an AP with 30+ subs try my suggestion:
1) Enable RTS Threshold on "ALL" CPE Radios but NOT the AP
2) Turn OFF airMAX.

IF YOU MISS ONE SUBS RADIO IT SCREWS YOUR UP.

See what happens and let me know.

Even though we mostly run airMAX if for nothing else the pretty graphs we always setup CPE radios with RTS Threshold Enabled and set to 1 which makes new radios coming on line more polite until they are assigned slices in TDMA.

So once you have all your sub radios setup you can turn airMAX on and off and watch the results.
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Re: Mimosa MU-MIMO ?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:53 pm

what channel spacing are you using?

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Re: Mimosa MU-MIMO ?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:15 pm

rebelwireless wrote:what channel spacing are you using?


With Shield kits on everything I can but the channels right up against each other but I try and stagger them when possible.

EXAMPLE OF 20 MHz CL CHANNEL ON TOWER:
5735 - Facing North
5755 - Facing South
5775 - Facing East
5795 - Facing West
5805 - Facing North East or North
5825 - Facing South West or South

Basically providing some physical separation if possible for close channels but I have been able to successfully stack two sectors with shield kits facing the same direction at say 5735 and 5755 and it worked fine.

You can also provide 5 Mhz if buffer between them if you have the spectrum such as 5735 and 5760 facing the same direction.
avatar.jpg

As you can see we pack our towers in.

This is a video of a tower yet un stuffed. Today it has (2) AF24 back hauls and some (12) 5GHz sectors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DgFoDwmPSc

Once again I am at RF Armor 3 miles to 20 MHz sector 20+/- subs (hitting the tower in that video)
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Re: Mimosa MU-MIMO ?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:48 am

sirhc wrote:Now at my WISP we stayed with what worked and worked well.

Legacy M5 gear with shields all around.

AF24 is our primary back hauls
We have some AFX, SAF, and MIMOSA back hauls as well.

We offer 30+ Mbps to our residential clients and most have ditched cable and use streaming.

We offer up to 100-HD Mbps private DFS links with NanoBridge/Beam links for larger commercial customers.

We saved a ton of money and are debt free and our system is still only at 50% capacity.

We are getting closer to 1,000 subs and bring in $600K+ a year with $50-$100K cash reserve.

My WISP runs itself for the most part by my 3 employees and I still draw $100K salary with benefits.

I Pay half of my guys $50K plus benefits which we pay like $75% of their family medical and dental.

If I decided to go back to my WISP tomorrow I could make it grow 2X in 2 years but RF Armor and Netonix take most of my time.

All I am saying is when you find something that works milk it until it no longer serves your purpose then upgrade slowly until you know the new gear works as intended. This saved my ass on the Titanium line.

I am slowly starting to use AC gear, mostly right now to replace private VIP NanoBridge PTP links and they seem to work well.

Will continue to play with AC PTMP on a small scale for awhile longer and then only replace sectors that fit the bill such as low noise floor, short client links, and fairly clean spectrum. I can see the AC gear replacing my DFS sectors first.


A good strategy. The AC gear is still early but very promising and runs very good on small scale. We see capacity of 144 on a 20 MHz Channel with most of our customers. I hope this additional tdma chip shows its potential and allows for higher numbers and brings tcp performance near to 144. UBNT did a good job recognizing the weakness of M gear and address it with AC gear. SW has to be done though.

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Re: Mimosa MU-MIMO ?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:09 am

Capacity is MUCH closer to reality on the AC gear.

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Re: Mimosa MU-MIMO ?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:21 am

rebelwireless wrote:Capacity is MUCH closer to reality on the AC gear.


I will give you that, the N gear reports air rate and the AC is reporting estimated actual payload capacity.

UBNT could go back and fix the M gear to report actual payload.....and I think they should.

With the N gear using NON Greenfield mode a 130/130 air rate will yield 70+/- Mbps capacity.

In fact I think they should update the N gear to use Greenfield Mode and increase the capacity by about 10% +/-

There is no reason WISPs that have eliminate all 802.3a gear should not be able to enable Greenfield Mode
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Re: Mimosa MU-MIMO ?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:51 am

I doubt most have much pre-N gear in the field these days. We have a very small number out in remote, tiny repeater sites where the equipment is still working and the throughput to the couple clients meets their plan.

One issue with the AC gear is that it's about 70% more throughput in good conditions, but anything -65 or worse and the M gear is very close, -70 and the M gear actually does better. This is fine when you are doing micro-pops (most of our new deployments) but it's focusing on one aspect that maybe wasn't that big of an issue. Chris, as you point out, you can sell high speed plans on M gear if you plan well. I would have really loved to see some efforts to improve modulation in lower SNR like Cambium (which has a 5dBm+ advantage in SNR easily) and I suspect....(NDA warning) will be much better in the short term.

That's why I'm interested in Mimosa. Yes, more throughput is great in good signal areas, but I want to be able to offer high speed service at -75 (rather, at what would be -75 on a PowerBeam to a Rocket Sector). I've already seen that 1-3dB less on Cambium on the AP & CPE ends up being the same reported signal level. Using some modern MU-MIMO and beamstearing, and a better AC radio to start with, makes me optimistic.

I'm going to go back to the fact that a Cambium 802.11n solution is VERY close to ubiquiti's AC gear on raw throughput, but is a more stable system with more predictable performance.

I can't say enough good things about M series ubiquiti, especially XM boards. Price to performance is excellent, it's really opened a lot of doors for wISPs. But their AC gear is really underwhelming and if I'm honest, should just be coming on the market now as the firmware is just getting stable enough for confident deployment. I've had AC gear hanging since the first shipment to streakwave. I've had a pretty significant script cycling through and rebooting radios for most of that time to keep everything working during normal hours.

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