New 24 port more expensive and no rack mount?

[Kevo]

So we were using the WS-24-400A and were getting those at slightly less than $500. I just ordered 2 more and we found out that the switch is different/new model. WS-26-400AC, and it cost us about $50 more and doesn't come with rack mount ears. The ears are like another $15 or so. So all said and done we're going to end up paying $70 more for this switch.

We just put in a Mikrotik switch recently that we paid $140 for. 24 gig ports and two SFP+ cages. I'm really starting to think we are wasting some serious money on these switches. The price is clearly going in the wrong direction, and to hit us with the no rack mount in the box on a 24 port switch, that's just mean.

[sirhc]

OK I didn't feel like typing a long description so I made a video.

Also keep in mind our products are made in North America not China which makes it more difficult to compete against their labor costs. Netonix employs many people in the US and Canada when you consider our sub contractors plus our direct staff here in PA.

When the WS-24 units first came out they were much higher in price:

WS-24-400A was originally $599.95 and we made a decent profit
Then it was reduced to $499.95 to dump them at cost to distributors as they were too slow to sale due to SIZE BEING TOO BIG FOR BOXES
This unit only offered (4) 48VH ports and ports 13-24 only offered 24V and 48V POE options

WS-24-400B was originally $549.95 and we made a decent profit
Then it was reduced to $449.95 to dump them at cost to distributors as they were too slow to sale due to SIZE BEING TOO BIG FOR BOXES
This unit only offered (2) 48VH ports and ports 13-24 only offered 24V POE option

The UBNT EdgeSwitch ES-24-500 which is as large as the original WS-24-400A (actually a little larger) has an MSRP of $545.00
This unit can only power (2) airFIBER units and does not offer any 24VH ports nor does it report watts on passive POE ports
THIS UNIT DOES INCLUDE RACK MOUNT EARS
Made in CHINA
Unit size: 19.09" x 1.72" x 11.24" <- WILL NOT FIT IN MOST WISP BOXES - TOO BIG

WS-26-400-AC is $549.95 (only $4.95 more than a UBNT ES-24-500)
This unit can power (6) airFIBER 24 radios
This unit has (2) ports cable of 24VH for Ignite radios
This unit has current sensors on all ports
THIS UNIT DOES NOT COME WITH RACK MOUNT EARS BUT DOES OFFER 2 DIFFERENT MODELS OF EARS *see video*
Made in North America <- If this means anything to anyone anymore?
Unit size: 13.5 x 1.72 x 10.75" <- WILL FIT IN A LOT OF SMALL BOXES - NICE AND COMPACT
This unit also offers through hole chassis mount so you can mount directly to wall

The video actually is wrong and says we reduced $50 in fact we reduced $100
So here is a VIDEO to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRZkMce ... e=youtu.be

[sirhc]

So we were using the WS-24-400A and were getting those at slightly less than $500. I just ordered 2 more and we found out that the switch is different/new model. WS-26-400AC, and it cost us about $50 more and doesn't come with rack mount ears. The ears are like another $15 or so. So all said and done we're going to end up paying $70 more for this switch.

We just put in a Mikrotik switch recently that we paid $140 for. 24 gig ports and two SFP+ cages. I'm really starting to think we are wasting some serious money on these switches. The price is clearly going in the wrong direction, and to hit us with the no rack mount in the box on a 24 port switch, that's just mean.

Does the MT switch have the ability power (6) AF24 radios?
Does the MT switch have the ability to power (2) 24VH ignite radios?
Can the MT switch power (4) AF24 type radios and (2) Ignite radios and then power 18 other 24V and 48V POE radios?
Does the MT offer a SMART DC model that can run on 9V to 72V DC and still power all the differnt devices you want to?
Does the MT offer a DC model that can run on NEGATIVE 48V DC and still power all the differnt devices you want to?
Now our current models do not offer SFP+ but that is coming Q1 of 2018

Our switches are NOT over priced at all, I do sort of take a little offence that people would say so because when you compare to even UBNT and then look at features our prices are right in there.

THe WS-24-400A/B were just dropped in price to break even to dump the units so we could free up that capital ($750,000.00) to produce and release the WS-26 units which are night and day better units for the WISP industry being 40% smaller, more POE options, and so on but as I said when compared to the UBNT ES-24-500 we are only $4.95 more and once again 40% smaller and tons more POE options.

So now that you have some facts you can decide if we are "ripping" people off.

But when you sale 2000 WS-24 units in 2016/2017 at basically cost you can not do that forever and continue to develope new stuff and stay in business.

But the WS-26-400-AC is actually $50.00 less than the original price of the WS-24-400A so I think we did good even if you think we did not.

[Kevo]

Firstly, let me say that I only said it was mean not to include the ears. It was supposed to be light hearted, hence the goofy emoji. I didn't say you were ripping anyone off.
It's just I don't think there is a single other gizmo I have ever bought in the 16 port plus range that didn't include ears. It also cost an extra $22 to have those things shipped after I realized we needed and had to get them separate.

All the other stuff sounds reasonable, but we're just spending too much money on these switches for what we get out of them. My first box I built many years ago is still running with all the original equipment except for one poe brick. It has a MT router, no switch at all, 9 UBNT sectors mixed of m5 and m2 radios and one backhaul, also UBNT. I used the included PoE bricks with some Tycon power PoE surge protectors on a piece of ply that I mounted on the rack, and the PoE bricks were also mounted to the rack between two pieces of thin plywood.

I like these switches and the options they have, but mainly I need one or two backhauls and a bunch of sector ports. I don't need a lot of 48v poe.

I'm not comparing the MT switch exactly, I'm just saying that at some point the cost of using one of these switches is so much higher than just getting a regular switch and mounting up the poe bricks that it's not worth it anymore. I've never looked at the UBNT switches since I've been pretty happy with the Netonix for the most part. Given their pricing and the fact that it may just be expensive to build such a switch our options might be pay more or just quit using them entirely.

But if you might at least consider putting the ears in the box with the switch that would be nice. We have racks in almost all our enclosures because we tend to use rack mount gear. It keeps everything neat, and it's not that expensive to get rack rails and put them in a decent size box. Even on smaller towers we tend to use those.

Anyway, it's just feedback from one customer. I know you have to run a business just like we do, so I don't begrudge you making whatever decisions you have to make for your business to work. If you're successful I would think it's just more likely that you'll be able to bring more compelling offerings down the road.

[sirhc]

Yes, if you buy 1 set of rack ears and ship them separately it is EXPENSIVE on shipping, I can not help this, sorry.

But when you include the ears with the switch the shipping is basically the same as just shipping a switch without the ears.

We get hit by a MINIMUM shipping fee from UPS but have great rates on larger weights.

For instance below you can see someone shipped 10 sets of ears for $13.81 or $1.38 each to ship.

I feel your pain making the mistake of not buying the ears with the switch and then having to pay shipping on the ears but we do warn people the ears are not included.

As I said less than 25% of people ever want the ears so why make people pay more all the time if they do not want the ears?

We took that money and put other things into the switch.

If you want to use POE brick and a normal switch then I guess you can do that but I like to power it all from the switch as it is less space and I can reboot the radio remotely or have watchdog do it.

Guess it all depends on what you want and what your willing to sacrifice to get that savings?

[Julian]

Can you do some of it cheaper? Maybe. Can you do everything that our switch does, in the same form factor, for less?

Can you remotely reset all your powered devices in the power brick/ Tik switch arrangement you were talking about?

Can that setup remotely monitor powered device current, or spit out all of the other SNMP metrics our equipment provides?

What does the spares inventory on one of those boxes look like?

It might be a little less expensive, sure, but I think it's a little apples-to-oranges.

[mike99]

We just put in a Mikrotik switch recently that we paid $140 for. 24 gig ports and two SFP+ cages. I'm really starting to think we are wasting some serious money on these switches. The price is clearly going in the wrong direction, and to hit us with the no rack mount in the box on a 24 port switch, that's just mean.

CRS switch 24 port, 189$ MSRP with 1 SFP+, 199$ MSRP with 2 SFP+, both DON'T support PoE output.
Source: https://mikrotik.com/products.

Not the same kind of device at all. Any PoE device cost a lot more than non PoE switch. Just check price between PoE and non PoE device of any brand. Also, Tik switch are a pain in the @$$ to configure. Seem like the just put every option of the switch API without adding user frendlyness. No GUI design or CLI design = less developpement cost.

[sakita]

The UBNT ES24-500 is only rated to 40° C which is just 104°F (or, as we call it, a cool summer day in the desert: because 104 does feel nicer than 112+ ).

MikroTik UI is not friendly and the UBNT EdgeSwitch UI is kind of a pain too - neither one as easy to use as Netonix.

As for power bricks vs. PoE - I'd much rather be able to reboot stuff remotely. Power bricks may seem like a few bucks saved up-front but how much inconvenience and cost is there for just one trip to a remote site? Adding up the cost of a person and a vehicle can eat up any savings on the first trip.

[Kevo]

We just put in a Mikrotik switch recently that we paid $140 for. 24 gig ports and two SFP+ cages. I'm really starting to think we are wasting some serious money on these switches. The price is clearly going in the wrong direction, and to hit us with the no rack mount in the box on a 24 port switch, that's just mean.

CRS switch 24 port, 189$ MSRP with 1 SFP+, 199$ MSRP with 2 SFP+, both DON'T support PoE output.
Source: https://mikrotik.com/products.

Not the same kind of device at all. Any PoE device cost a lot more than non PoE switch. Just check price between PoE and non PoE device of any brand. Also, Tik switch are a pain in the @$$ to configure. Seem like the just put every option of the switch API without adding user frendlyness. No GUI design or CLI design = less developpement cost.

I think all of that was covered previously. It's not a direct comparison, just saying in terms of results I'm starting to question my thinking. That box with the PoEs and tik router has had one service visit in 3 or 4 years and that was with the tower taking a strike which knocked another providers equipment off line. It just works. We had to replace one PoE.

We've had to service a bunch of sites with the netonix switches. That may be our fault for using surge protectors, but we used to lose radios before we started using surge protectors, so that's a tough choice to make.

I must agree that the UI on the netonix switches is the best switch UI I've worked with so kudos to them on that.

[mblfone]

A couple of clarifying questions...

-what "boxes" are you referring to. It must be some kind of equipment enclosure?
-Is the box installation why the A.C. plug was moved to the front? I prefer the back and rackmounted.
-do you have plans for dual A.C. power inputs at some point?

I have been weighing UBNT for the switches I am buying in the morning. Your video on the evolution of the product and manufacturing expense discussion keeps me buying Netonix.

For me priority is: proven quality first, dual power supplies second, H ports third and A.C. on the back is fourth.

I know you cannot make everyone happy. I have appreciated not having to reboot the switch or constantly deal with port flapping/locking up problems common with the other guys.

Thanks.