You have to power down a port before unplugging the cable?!?

[dragonfly]

Just bought a bunch of these because we saw them at WISPAPALOOZA. Looked like a good replacement for a RB750UP's. But upon first opening (we actually read the docs in the box) and see that it says it's very important that you power down a port before unplugging the cable? Seriously?! It also says to test the cable first to make sure it's not shorted as it could reboot the switch. Again, Seriously?!?!

All POE switches we have ever worked with can detect when to power up/down a port. They also have short protection. What if a climber chops off a connector to replace it without first remembering to power down the port? The whole site reboots?

Is this just an overly conservative warning, or really how it is? If it is, we'll be returning all of these and sticking with our existing POE's and 750UP's. How disappointing!!!

[sirhc]

Just bought a bunch of these because we saw them at WISPAPALOOZA. Looked like a good replacement for a RB750UP's. But upon first opening (we actually read the docs in the box) and see that it says it's very important that you power down a port before unplugging the cable? Seriously?! It also says to test the cable first to make sure it's not shorted as it could reboot the switch. Again, Seriously?!?!


Is this just an overly conservative warning, or really how it is? If it is, we'll be returning all of these and sticking with our existing POE's and 750UP's. How disappointing!!!

There is a Polyfuse for short protection to protect a shorted cable from becoming a fire hazard but since these switches deliver HIGH POWER compared to other POE switches it can still damage a port if the cable is shorted.

But besides that if you take most any Passive POE switch and turn on 48V then plug in a dead shorted cable or crimp an END on a live cable it almost always results in the entire switch being dead and may never boot again where as with our switch you "may" damage/fry the port you shorted especially with 24VH or 48VH but the rest of the switch if fine (although it "may" cause a power dip which "could" result in the switch rebooting).

Our ports are capable of 1.5A sustained POE at 55C which you will NOT find in any other POE switch on the market (THAT IS A CRAP LOAD OF POWER) and yes if you plug in a dead shorted cable the power draw down in amperage could cause the switch to reboot.

Remember if a port is capable if 1.5A at 55C (remember Polyfuses and how they work) that means at cooler temperatures that port could pass up to around 2 Amps and a Polyfuse is designed to handle 150% to 200% of in rush current so up to 3 Amps to 4 Amps or 150 to 200 watts. To put that into perspective a ToughSWITCH Pro 8 only has a 150 watt power supply for the entire switch.

If you upgrade the firmware to v1.3.3 POE Smart will automatically check for DEAD SHORTED cables when you go to turn POE on unless you disable the feature on the Ports Tab but it is not to be relied on as your only safety checks but is more to protect you in-case you put up a new cable and punch it down wrong and forget to first check your work.

But if you turn on POE for a port before you plug in your cable then POE Smart is by-passed, or if you crimp a live cable POE Smart will not protect you as power is already turned on for that port and POE Smart only checks the cable when you first select a POE option for a port then click Save/Apply. Once POE is already turned ON for a port then POE Smart is bypassed if you then plug in a cable as the port was already checked when you first turned the POE ON for that port.

All POE switches we have ever worked with can detect when to power up/down a port. They also have short protection. What if a climber chops off a connector to replace it without first remembering to power down the port? The whole site reboots?

Are you freaken kidding me? These are PASSIVE POE which means if POE is turned on then the POE power is ON. If you crimp an end on a LIVE cable you will probably fry the port as that shorts all 8 pins together - A DEAD SHORT!!!

Now "ACTIVE" POE which is 802.3.af/at leaves the power turned OFF until it negotiates with the device then turns it on, this is not ACTIVE POE.

With an active POE switch you can crimp ends on live ports as active POE only turns power on after it negotiates which means the cable checked out but then again you can NOT power airMAX or airFIBER devices with "active" POE you need "passive" POE and with passive POE you need to be more careful.

RB750UP's can not power airFIBER devices and other HIGH power needs.

So no, you can not turn POE on a port then expect to cut live wires and then crimp ends on unless you want to fry the port and that type of damage is NOT covered under warranty.

I have NEVER heard of any passive POE switch manufacturer that condones cutting and crimping LIVE ports, THAT IS INSANE, especially a port capable of delivering 1.5 to 2 Amps at 55C or 100 watts (2x in-rush), that type of power on a dead shorted cable could also damage the Ethernet cable itself.

I have never been able to find an Ethernet Transformer that can handle that much power. We have the highest rated ones we could find and they are only rated at 1 Amp per pair so there is a good change that Polyfuse will not POP before the Transformer Pops.

Yes, we are telling you to NOT plug in cables on live ports for your protection because if the cable is crimped wrong causing a short or you short the cable it "will" result in damage to the port and that damage will not be covered under warranty.

Yes, we are telling you it is not very smart to cut and crimp ends on cables that have LIVE "Passive" POE on them.

Yes, we are saying that a DEAD SHORT on a port capable of 1.5A to 2A with an in-rush capacity of 3A to 4A may result in a momentary power drop that "might" cause the switch to reboot and or damage/fry the Ethernet Transformer.

So yes we HIGHLY recommend never plugging in LIVE POE ports especially cables that you have not tested for cross shorts such as a newly ran cable.

Pretty much that is what we are saying.

[adairw]

dragonfly,
you need to take a deep breath here and realize what this switch is capable of. Everything Chris stated is true, but probably over careful. Just be warned that if you don't do what it states you're not covered under warranty..

Do I plug and unplug ports hot? Yes. Do I run cable diagnostics to check for dead shorts? Yes.

Listen, If you want to continue to run limited and weak switches like the 750UP, be my guest. but those of us who have RAPIDLY growing networks (read over 150 subs per month) these things are a LIFE SAVER. It allows me to put in ONE switch (ok maybe two) and power just about anything I need it to. I can do inplace upgrades on a links and AP's just by powering down a 24v (from my phone) connecting the new radio and powering back up with the correct voltage. Tried that with a 750UP?
If you dear short a 750UP or something else stupid, you will screw it up. If you haven't it's probably just because you're lucky.

Netonix is a small operation and they are trying to build a solid product. Not spend all day doing warranties.

[dragonfly]

Woah, chill out. I don't think I ever said your switches weren't fancy and neat and cool and groovy that they can do an airfiber and regular 24V radios all at once. I said it's silly that you have to power down a port before unplugging the cable, and silly that a short could take down the entire site (says a lot for continuing to have diverse POE supplies on switched APC power controllers).

In the future we'll be sure to not ask any questions about your products. It's clear your customer service is just pointing out how everything else sucks and you're the best.

Anyway, thanks for the explanation!

[Dave]

Dragonfly

First off, thanks for your posting. We are proud of our products so far & do at times need to listen more to peoples comments. Everything Chris said is true, but so are your points.

You actually posted something that of course would be a little frustrating to users. IE. The fact a short could reset switch. Even a short will generally not reset the switch. Rarely will a 24 volt short reset or damage a switch, but a 48 V short will sometimes reset the switch and possibly damage that ports transformer, but the switch will still run after that event happens.

The difference between our Company & other similar competitors Company's is that we tell you about this generic issue & they don't. They hide this fact. Not only do we tell you about it, we suggest simple steps that will generally avoid any issues.

In fact we are generally better than competition as our switch won't die & need replacing. But that being said, I also do realize it is something that needs addressing in future generations of our product & it is in the works down the road. I appreciate all customer feedback as it will help us design better products down the road.

Thanks.

Dave

[adairw]

Chris can come off strong, but it's because he's passionate about his product.
Dave is totally right about others not telling you about theses facts in their product.
Plus it's not fair to compare an 802.3af/at switch with a passive switch.
Don't look at what they put on the paper in the box as being a strike against the product. Look at it as them being open and forth right about what can happen if you do something stupid. Hopefully someday it won't be this way, until then, enjoy a bad ass switch/poe controller.

[sirhc]

Chris can come off strong, but it's because he's passionate about his product.

Yea, I have TERRIBLE affect! Sorry if I came across wrong dragonfly.

Adair is correct though I really get into this way too heavy!

I will tell you we are working on the next generation of switches and we hope to make them industructable!

[IntL-Daniel]

I am just preconfiguring new NETONIX WS-12-250-AC to be ready to deploy. In fact it will replace current UBNT ToughSwitch POE Pro (because of FlowControl buffer issue). The TS is currrently in production so we plan that change must be very fast to have as short downtime as possible.

The question is, do we really need to power up all ports "after" plugging all cables? Currently all powered cables in TS are probably not shorted...so in this case can we prepare the NETONIX configuration including power ON on desired ports incl. 2 ports with 48VH for two AirFibers? So do I understand correctly that the warning is only to avoid possibility to use shorted cable?

And later...if we just clib the tower to replace currently powered device (i.e. RocketM5 powered by 24V and only device - not cable or connector) do we really need to switch off the power first? So once I already know that the cable is 100% OK the power down/up is not 100% necessary?

Thanks for reply.

[sirhc]

I am just preconfiguring new NETONIX WS-12-250-AC to be ready to deploy. In fact it will replace current UBNT ToughSwitch POE Pro (because of FlowControl buffer issue). The TS is currrently in production so we plan that change must be very fast to have as short downtime as possible.

The question is, do we really need to power up all ports "after" plugging all cables? Currently all powered cables in TS are probably not shorted...so in this case can we prepare the NETONIX configuration including power ON on desired ports incl. 2 ports with 48VH for two AirFibers? So do I understand correctly that the warning is only to avoid possibility to use shorted cable?

And later...if we just clib the tower to replace currently powered device (i.e. RocketM5 powered by 24V and only device - not cable or connector) do we really need to switch off the power first? So once I already know that the cable is 100% OK the power down/up is not 100% necessary?

Thanks for reply.

It is "suggested" to not plug and unplug active POE ports especially VH ports.

You should "never" cut and crimp ends on live POE cables as one user wanted to do because when you cut and crimp and end you are shorting the cable and will damage the switch.

[IntL-Daniel]

Thanks for reply. Could you be more specific about "It is "suggested" to not plug and unplug active POE ports especially VH ports."? Is there any other reason except a "avoiding not plug shorted cable"?